Ep. 7 - Exploration before Explanation: A 'Challenging' Conversation w/ Andy Vasily

Episode SEVEN introduces Andy Vasily, a curriculum coordinator in Antwerp, Belgium. Andy is the author of the second chapter in the Meaningful Physical Education book which explores Meaningful PE pedagogy in an individual pursuits unit. Andy has spent many years as a teacher and pedagogical coach at schools around the globe and has spoken in more than 20 countries regarding his passion for physical & health education and leadership. His blog, formerly PYP with Andy (now www.andyvasily.com) continues to be a go-to resource for teachers looking to improve their practice.  Andy is the founder and host of the Run Your Life podcast, which is dedicated to unpacking excellence in a variety of sport, education, and health & wellness contexts. 

Links from Episode

• An Actor-Oriented Perspective on Implementing a Pedagogical Innovation in a Cycling Unit (JTPE)
• Creating Meaningful Experiences on a Bike (Blog)
• The Power of Professional Inquiry (Blog)
• runyourlifeshowwithandyvasily.buzzsprout.com
• www.runyourlifepodcast.com
• www.andyvasily.com
• Meaningful Physical Education: An Approach for Teaching and Learning (Amazon)
• 10 to 25 - David Yeager (Andy’s Recommended Reading)
• Follow Andy on X

Thanks to Isaiah Gleddie for the guitar pieces, SSHRC for some funding and our guests for sharing!

Transcript

Douglas Gleddie: 0:00

Ty. Hello, folks, you are listening to the meaningful podcast. Experience with myself, Doug Gleddie

Ty Riddick: 0:18

and I'm Ty Riddick. The purpose of this podcast is to engage in conversations with those enacting meaningful physical education, both in terms of research as well as in their teaching practice and everything that falls in between.

Douglas Gleddie: 0:30

Thanks for joining us on with the show. Mr. Andy Vasily, it is so good to have you here on our podcast today. This is great. We're just talking. And again, we should record the pre show talking. We'll get into that next time, because there's always a good little nuggets in there. But yeah, we've known each other for Since 2012 so I'm not very good at math, but I think that's about 13 years, yeah, but only finally we're able to be in the same physical space about a year ago. Yeah, about a week, yeah, a year ago last week, yeah, I had the opportunity to spend some time with you in Saudi Arabia, in the Coast school. So maybe just, you know, you spent eight years there. You've now moved to Belgium. Do you want to just tell us a little bit what you're up to, where you're at, what's going on, yeah,

Andy Vasily: 1:23

thanks. And first of all, yeah, it's great to connect with both of you, Ty and Doug, and I really appreciate coming on your podcast. I'm really passionate about the themes we're going to discuss, and it really resonates greatly in the work that I do. So at KAUST, I was a instructional coach. We were called pedagogical coordinators, which is kind of a cross between a curriculum coordinator and instructional coach. So I had done that for six years at KAUST. Tried to get into PE classes as much as possible, and I was welcome to go in and co teach with the teachers that I was coaching there and then during COVID, you know, a lot of shifts happened, and we suddenly were really spread thin. So I got back to teaching on a semi part time basis. And then there was some cuts at Coast due to COVID, and I was no longer in the role as a pedagogical coordinator, so I jumped right back into teaching full time, which I admit, even after years of teaching and then being a coach, it was a bit daunting to jump back into teaching, because suddenly I'm moving from this space of coaching teachers around best practice, still being in the trenches a bit, but then being full time with kids again, and the responsibility that comes with that, and the hard planning and the energy and time, and it was like I was a first year teacher at a teacher's college again. You know, when you're so exhausted, you you get home and you just collapse on the bed. It was kind of like that in the initial days, and then I just had to adjust. And then realized how fortunate I was. Like any coach, any principal, any leader, needs to get back to teaching as much as possible to stay grounded, because it taught me so much, just in the sense of how much kids have changed since I was teaching full time, you know, 10-12, years ago. So it required a lot of adaptability and and flexibility in my thinking and to really understand that there was so much more that I needed to learn in order to have the impact that I really wanted. So I had done that for a couple years, and then we had the opportunity to move to Belgium here, which was a great move, but a very difficult transition. You know, you have empty nest syndrome. Both our kids went to college at the same time. We're moving countries, changing jobs. So it was quite stressful. But the work here I love. I'm back to, you know that role of curriculum coordinator and coaching and Ty asked if I'm still teaching while not full time, but I get in the classroom as much as possible to know the kids and to, I don't even like to say model teach, because it's not about modeling, it's about going in there and co teaching and just working with the teachers on the ground level. And nothing is more rewarding, and that itself inspires me to want to keep doing what I'm doing and learn as much as I can, and then share it with the teachers that I train and the workshops that I lead around the world. So that's kind of a nutshell glimpse into what things have been like the last 10 years, really. So that's

Douglas Gleddie: 4:52

that's great. Thanks, Andy. And I should mention too that when I was visiting you in Saudi there, we did spend some time actually talking about the creation of this. Podcast, yeah, you, you gave us some really good advice and some some some timeless tips. And so, yeah, just, I guess, an official thank you for for that, just to help us get this, get this rolling, just simple stuff, like, do you record on Zoom? Do you, you know, what do you use for a website? What do you so that was, that was really good. And then we recorded a podcast there too, which is always fun. So yeah,

Andy Vasily: 5:24

and one of the things that you know, Ty, both of you, you and Doug, are doing really meaningful work, like, literally, we talk about meaningful PE, but it's meaningful work to really unpack the work, and that's what you're doing. And you're creating a space that's a little different, not very different, than a lot of the PE podcasts out there, because it's not about having the right answers, it's about exploring what's possible, you know, and so I commend you both for really taking the dive into podcasting and sharing your work.

Douglas Gleddie: 5:57

Yeah, it's been fun. I've really enjoyed the back and forth between, kind of the more heavy research angle, and then, how the hell does this happen in schools? And like you just mentioned, like, you get in there and it's like, okay, you're tired, you've got different stuff. How do you How are you intentional about it? How do you actually action it? What's the different context? So that's been really fun on it, but I think you're the first, like learning coach that we've had on here. So I have high expectations. Well,

Andy Vasily: 6:25

we'll see what we can do, but it's a dual role, right? So, yeah, it's awesome. I love it. And

Ty Riddick: 6:33

I want to ask you, there's so many I have many burning questions specific to the cycling unit, which has been featured in a published peer review article. You featured it in your blog, you've talked about it on your podcast. Doug's holding up the book available on Amazon, and which I believe is chapter two. I didn't bring my book with me today. If for some or for your somebody was listening, and they're like, What will this cycling? I don't know what necessarily that they're talking about. Can you give us a quick snippet or kind of what this unit was all about, and then I'll get into some questions for you. Yeah,

Andy Vasily: 7:08

sure. So about the book itself? I was in Malaysia last week running training for teachers I had mentioned. So there was a number of teachers there from different disciplines, but one of the PE teachers, who is from Quebec, but works in India, brought a paperback copy of the meaningful PE book, which was really cool to see, I didn't know is in paperback, and she brought it, and she, like, loves the book. It's taught her so much. So I just wanted to mention that, because Doug just showed it, but yeah, to give you, give you some context into the cycle cycling unit. It had been going on before I got there. So this would have been 2015 I think 2016 so they were doing it, I think the teachers there in grade one and grade five, and I had seen it run very successfully. And then I was like, Why isn't this happening every year? And it's not that they didn't want to do it, but they just felt that they had to cover so much content that they didn't know if they could do it every year. And I went right away to that idea of relevance and meaning. And in our closed community at Coast, when I say closed, it's a compound that's like 26 square kilometers, right on the Red Sea Doug. It's a beautiful place. You've been there, it is like a resort, and there's, there's so many opportunities for physical activity there. So they agreed that they should run it every year, and then that first year that they decided to run it across the grades, I jumped in with another teacher, Evan bryceland from Scotland, and I co taught the unit in grade five with him, and he was really open to these ideas to from moving from Skill and Drill and just safety awareness on a bike to really looking at it as a lifetime pursuit. So he let me lead the cycling unit. And right away, in my head, I was like, Okay, how can I apply the features or address the features? And to me, that's right away when I prioritize the the theme of challenge, the the feature of challenge. Because if we're going to differentiate for our learners, which we need to do, that's just great practice to differentiate, then we have to use challenge as an entry point to then design learning engagements around that. So what we did in that unit, in a nutshell is really start off that first two weeks with this idea of exploration before explanation. And that comes from the work of Professor, Guy Claxton from the UK. He was on my podcast a few years ago, and I said, Can you sum up all of your learning and 40 years of work? Can you sum up like your greatest. First light bulb kind of moment, or aha moment in looking back on your career. And he said, I wish that every single teacher would embrace the idea of exploration before explanation, because we force kids into having to know No, no or Do, do, do right away. So I took that concept and said, Okay, let's do the first two weeks are about exploring different challenges. So for in the pre assessment, out of a class of 20, whatever we had, 2223 there were probably six or seven cyclists that were totally beginning fresh. They'd never ridden a bike. So for them, we had to keep them on the basketball court area just working on basic skills necessary to be able to ride a bike. For the others who were already somewhat competent to very competent, we opened it up to challenge. So we had them explore different types of cycling on sand surfaces, dirt surfaces, grass, cement, tight paths, narrow paths, all of that. And the driving question, I always start with that driving question is, what do you find most challenging? Or what did you find most challenging today? And then that's the power of the exit ticket to get them to write down on an exit ticket, and if they English as a second language, I can scribe for them, use Google Translate, whatever, but to identify the challenges right from the get go. So those first two weeks were about identifying challenges and then creating self assessments around those challenges. So right away we have entry points, and I used a one to 10 scale. So one, easy peasy lemon squeezy, 10, impossible. So we're looking at that idea of 123, and four being green, 567, even eight turn turning a little yellowy orange. But those middle numbers, five to eight yellow and then nine and 10 red. So getting them familiar with some metrics around challenge, so that they can articulate how challenging something is. So then right away, if it's too too easy, they're really good at it, then then level up. If it's too hard, then level down. So that was the first two weeks of the unit. The middle two weeks of the unit were about refining and really looking at challenges that most resonated with them, that were most most relevant with them. And then the last two weeks were taking it out on the road. And that's what Doug. Doug, you experienced all of them, you know. So then the last two weeks, like going out, using our community spaces to find challenge out in the community, to let the kids know that cycling is not just driving from riding their bikes from point A to point B for transportation reasons, but more so, cycling is a lifetime pursuit that can be explored in multiple different ways, including racing, including off roading, including, you know, building ramps and, you know, like, whatever it is they want. So that is kind of a nutshell glimpse into the unit. And from that year on, we had more and more competent cyclists. So when Doug was there last year, everybody could ride a bike quite well, right? The only ones that couldn't were new to the school, so we had a couple that were very basic. So, so then you have to take challenge to the next level, because they're already competent. So every year was building on, making it making it more challenging. So that's kind of a nutshell. Glimpse into it. Awesome,

Ty Riddick: 13:45

yeah, and one of my shining example of meaningful phys ed in practice. But my favorite part of the chapter is actually this one little bolded sentence where it says, This is what I needed to give up. And it wasn't that this was just a perfect fit, maybe philosophical fit for everybody in the department. There was some give and take in there. So I'm wondering if you can just talk a little bit about what you did need to give up in order for this lesson or this unit to be as kind of successful as it has

Andy Vasily: 14:15

been. So one of the things I had to give up was especially once I started to co teach the unit with other teachers who weren't as familiar with the meaningful P framework is, is to give up what I think is best and work with the teachers in a way that allows them to see what's possible, but also take in their ideas. Even if I felt that their ideas, I don't want to say their ideas were bad, but a little more traditional, you know, but to still honor the fact that they're teaching in that way from a place of deep care and accountability. And a lot of times, traditional teaching is about, I have to be accountable. I have to build these skills, you know. I. Have to make these, these, these young people physically literate, which means I can't say no, that's not right, but I just have to be patient in bringing them or helping them to see another way to do it. So I had to give up that kind of control of what I think is best, but also give up that sense that pressure for me to make sure that every kid achieves success, because I don't know if they're going to I can only create the conditions for them to explore what's possible and to try to intrinsically motivate them to want to be engaged in their learning, and if we get that right then, then hopefully everything else takes care of itself. So those are probably two of the big things that I really needed to let go of in order to truly teach in this way. Yeah,

Ty Riddick: 15:53

like that you brought up, and I certainly have pressure that I feel, and have felt in the past, is that, well, there's physical literacy, there's so much, a wide range of skills that kids would need to acquire, is my job, then, to try and expose these kids to as many skills as possible. But when you do approach things in that way, it's like you're always the next year, just at an introductory level, again, being able to go deeper and actually take the time that we know is required to develop those skills. And I was trying to count as you were mentioning, but unit, the unit you mentioned six

Andy Vasily: 16:21

weeks, we ended up extending it to nine. And how many lessons per week? Two. So there were 245 minute lessons a week.

Ty Riddick: 16:30

Yeah. So I think if you were to tell most visit teachers that we're gonna be in this unit for nine weeks, it would probably give a lot of us anxiety that, yeah, that. Well, what about everything else and so, but I think it's, it's such an important point that you highlight that it's not the transition, or to emphasize meaningfulness is not always. It's not easy. Like, there is a lot of philosophical pushback there and understanding, like, well, what? What is reasonable for me? What can I achieve? And if I want to pursue this and I believe in it, there are things that I might need to let go of. And I think that aspect of time and understand that we might not get to everything every year is a really hard thing for a lot of teachers to let go of,

Douglas Gleddie: 17:09

well, and stuff. Yeah, Steph Benny mentions that too with her skipping unit that she, I think one of the I can't remember if it's in the book or if it's one of her articles, but you know, just she felt really pressured not to take this unit into two months, but that's really where the students were driving it, and that's what really stood out to me. Andy, when you, you know you, you gave them those two weeks to figure out what, what they find challenging, what they don't find challenging, and that the autonomy there is is massive, and that can be hard for for teachers to give that up to.

Andy Vasily: 17:41

Oh, big time, right? And when you look at DC and Ryan's work around self determination theory, you know, autonomy, relatedness, competence, right? So autonomy is the key, but then building relationships, a culture, belonging, regardless of skill level. And Doug, I think you saw that, you know, you saw that the little groups of people, of students working together, and that competence piece takes care of itself when the entry points are there, you know, not only trusting in that process,

Douglas Gleddie: 18:18

yeah. And not only does it take care of itself. The students take care of the competence they have the right because a lot of and not, maybe not a lot, but some of the arguments I've heard on that flip side of this is why we do more traditional, whatever that means, but more Skill and Drill, let's say, is that we want to build the competence, because otherwise they won't be able to play the game right? But I see it as similar to like teaching games for understanding until you have knowledge of the game, until you can know the game, you don't know what skills you need, and that, I mean, that framework is totally built on exploration as well. And so I love that you know, in this in this case, you're it's not that we're ignoring competence, it's that we're taking the time to provide the right context and a reason for attaining competence. And your podcast I listened two years ago with with Scott crutchmar too. That was one of the things that stuck with me is, you know, moving from someone who rides a bike to actually being a cyclist, this becomes a way of life for me, and not every kid will get that, and that's okay,

Andy Vasily: 19:21

yeah. Well, what Scott said was that his job is to open the doors of the kingdom and to show what's possible, and to say, to hold their hand and to take them into the kingdom and to show them what's possible. And that was, like, you know, a bit emotional hearing that from him, because it reaffirmed and confirmed that what I was doing was right for the kids and and Scott clearly says it's not about having the answers. It's about letting them figure it out. Does that mean that you don't teach them anything? Absolutely not you've. Free yourself up to be a facilitator of learning and Doug again, you saw that like we were there whenever a student needed us. You could see the students struggling, and then we could go give that one to one, timely feedback and timely support, right? But for the most part, you know, just standing back, we were on our bikes at the top of that little hill. Remember, the kids were riding down the hill and riding up, and they couldn't get up, and they couldn't get up. And then we were talking about getting more speed to to attack the hill. And then you saw the ones just not giving up, not giving up, and then finally cresting it, making it to the top. And the joy and the cheers and that, you know, just the the buzz of learning in that moment was not directed from us, yet, we were still there, and we were providing the support needed for any student that was struggling, that needed just that extra, not metaphorical Push, not literal push on the bike, right?

Douglas Gleddie: 21:02

Yeah. Well, there was a few kids that needed a literal push, but, yeah, it was okay. Only one that only when the time came in. Well, it's, it's, it's interesting, because I just, I just thought of this now, but like when I was teaching, like, actually two decades ago now, you know, I ran this course called XP, so it was like an option, course, but basically, extra Phys Ed was what we called it. So we focused on things, and we had more time to dive into things. And so we did mountain biking in the fall, and about five years later, I was downhill mountain biking at Sun peaks in Kamloops, and I'm biking by the outdoor patio, and I get this, Hey, Mr. Glady, and it's these two students that I had in that class, and their mom and their dad, and they now have embraced mountain biking as a way of life. They spend a week in the mountains every year, and the mom just, you know, she's like, Thanks for introducing us to this sport. And it was kind of a neat like, I won't lie, I biked away and I shed a tear or two. It was kind of cool, but, and you don't get that from every every kid, but that's isn't that really the goal that they find students, find something meaningful, find a way to be active that then continues forward.

Andy Vasily: 22:13

Yeah. And I think there's the individual pursuit path, there's the team sport path. There's so many pathways into this idea, right? And I think one of the things that we did so well in the last couple years was to invite the parents in. So to end the unit, the parents came in on bikes and and the kids took them around the community, and the kids got them like the parents were afraid to go down the hills, and they're like, nope, not going to do it. And so then the kids just start on that little hill over there. Hill over there. Yeah, so the kids are starting to introduce entry points to their parents. So we saw a lot more parent engagement in the unit with every passing year when the grade one parents knew that the kids were going to learn cycling a month before we sent out a letter, and then the grade one parents were often in the community teaching their kids how to ride so in preparation for the unit. So that's our closed community where it was possible. But how can you take that thinking to a public setting, to a city setting where it's not as easy, because the pushback I get is, oh, yeah, that works for you and coast, because you got this perfect little community, this test tube community, to do anything. Well, yeah, take the lessons learned. Teachers are awesome. They will figure stuff out, but you have to extend your thinking to really push what's possible if our ultimate goal is falling in love with some form of lifetime movement? Yeah,

Ty Riddick: 23:51

I don't want to put you on the spot. Andy, but so thinking about, I hear that we're at a private independent school as well, and so we have a beautiful campus. We do some cycling. And same thing. It's like, well, you have this, you have all of these options. So thinking about your context in Belgium, just as an as an observer in the community, what possibilities do you see there, not necessarily not be cycling, but in terms of kind of community, engaged physical activity options for your kids?

Andy Vasily: 24:20

What word? What they're doing here, I should say we, because I'm not teaching, but I'm still involved. Is, yeah, they're doing jump rope. They're doing a lot of individual pursuits with trying to get kids engaged. And, you know, get parents involved. It's definitely a different kind of community, because people are spread out in little pockets around the city, but I'm trying to have conversations with the team about these features, so they're new to the features. You know, the team has been here a while, and and again, they have the very best of intentions and moving more from a Skill and Drill focus to you. Minimum. And what's happening a lot more this year is CO constructing success criteria. So maybe that's just the starting point. Is making it very student centered, so that they can take ownership of their learning, because that's where it has to start right and then build their capacity to co construct what success looks like, to unpack success criteria, and then again, given our context and our facilities, try to create stations that allow for entry points. So they've been really open to these ideas in their net games unit. So far this year, there is a cycling there's a cycling carnival, which is just a one day thing, where the kids bring their bikes into school, and then we open it up to the community around us, so the schools around us can come and take part in the activities as well. So again, it's more just building the connection with the community around us to show this is these are the things we're trying to do just to change some thinking, because the public schools, it's very traditional, right? So then our job becomes shifting thinking about what's possible and working at that micro level, and then moving forward from there.

Douglas Gleddie: 26:17

Yeah, I really liked, and I like that, that Cross School connection, because that's so critical to learning, and we often never get out of our own school, right? So that's, yeah, really good. Andy, you've been, you know, there's been a lot of focus on the challenge stuff that's kind of your your thing. But I guess, how have you been considering accompanying some of the other features alongside? Are you noticing any new anecdotal type features? And we were talking before the podcast here about your recent teacher workshop in Malaysia, so maybe just roll in some of that talk about the integration of things.

Andy Vasily: 26:55

Yeah. So I was challenged myself, and it worked so well in cycling. Then in my mind, I was like, how can it actually look in or what will it actually look like in an invasion games unit, or, you know, net games, whatever it is. And I began to wonder about certain ideas, and I'll share this with you. I know I have some slides I want to show you, but before doing that, so my thinking was I went down to Mozambique last year, Mozambique Africa, and I was working with a PE team there, awesome humans, all national level Athletes, you know. So some played high level soccer, some played high level basketball, some high level track and field from a very traditional sport based culture. So of course, they taught in ways that were Skill and Drill and the way they learned, and they were talking about Ultimate Frisbee, that there was a real lack of engagement in Ultimate Frisbee, and that they really wanted to teach us, because it's a great sport, and I agree totally. And my thinking at the time, it was kind of an aha moment for me, and I was just thinking of frisbee, what's possible with a Frisbee, right? So maybe we start off the unit with Ultimate Frisbee, and you teach the skills needed to play in a game and to build the skills and competencies for them to play in small sided Ultimate Frisbee games, right? But there's still going to be disengagement. So our choice as a teacher is just push on force the kids to play. You don't like it, but maybe you'll learn to like it kind of thing. But that's not our job. Our job is not to convince somebody to like something. Our job is to create the conditions for them to find a pathway into what's possible. So I said, How about halfway through the unit, you pause and you say, Okay, we've taught you Ultimate Frisbee. If that's not your thing, you can do other things with frisbee, such as frisbee golf. So now it turns into a target games focus. So they were halfway through the unit, and they, in their mind, didn't want to switch things up, but they were open to the next time they run it to do just that. So to start with Ultimate Frisbee and then move into, okay, if that's not your thing, you can do frisbee golf. And that translates into if football, soccer is not your thing, you can do foot golf, yeah. That translates into if basketball is not your thing, maybe we can switch to just park games, shooting games, or even Foursquare, because Foursquare has some commonalities with you know, you have to bounce passage, you have to move in space. So that I brought that idea back to my teaching at Coast, and I was like, hell, yeah, that's what I'm going to do, because they were focused on a basketball unit. So I said, this is the way I'm going to do it with Mike. Class. So halfway through, you know, we did the basketball exploration before explanation, moving to modified games, proper games for the athletes, moving toward, if that's not your thing, you can work on individual, individual skill development shooting, or you can play Foursquare. And then I measured the level of engagement, and all the kids were engaged because they had an avenue into it. So this leads me to ask you both, okay, so if invasion games is the focus, and we have our outcomes for invasion games, then suddenly, how can Are we allowed to flip to target games or something else? I'm like, Hell Yeah, as long as you have pedagogical rationale for making the decisions that you're making. So but I might get roasted in Ontario if I'm a PE teacher and I'm switching the focus like that, right? So what do you what is your feedback on that? How that might be possible or not possible.

Douglas Gleddie: 31:03

What? Yeah, to me, it's about, it's about the connections between those things, right? So it's, what are the, what are the common, you know, competence and confidence that go across different areas. So to switch, like I would have no problem switching from an invasion game to a target game, or from a target game to dance and but I do think there's value in what you just said with those teachers who, yeah, not, not every kid in your class is going to, you know, open the door and fully embrace the kingdom of ultimate, yeah, but they may figure out that they can enjoy throwing a Frisbee with a friend, or they can play tips, or you mentioned frisbee golf, or beers Be is a lifelong skill, waiting for that one to be mentioned. Yeah, it was coming, but, but that also means if, if they're just, I don't enjoy frisbee, I don't enjoy throwing a disc, that's okay, right? You, you've, you've introduced it, they've developed a base level of competence, but it also helps them appreciate what other people might like. And sometimes you do activities with people because you just like, I don't really like golf that much. I know, sorry buddy. Not that I don't like it. It's just there are other things I would choose to spend five hours on before golf comes in. I love to golf with my wife. I love to Golf With Friends because they love it, so therefore I will do it, right, yeah. And so I think having that attitude of, you know, I don't really like dance or like this, but I know that other people really do, so I'm going to learn it to for them,

Ty Riddick: 32:38

yeah, I think. And I mean, I'm not going to pedal the curriculum, but I'll pedal the curriculum. And in a lot of curriculums, the the the outcome is just, there you're sending and receiving an object. Yeah, there you go, theory, like, it doesn't matter. And if sort of frisbee is the object that we're going to do this exploration with, well, I can send that object in many different ways. Yeah. And it reminds me, I met a teacher, a new, relatively new teacher, Adam Carter, in Ontario, and he was telling me about the way he set up his curriculum, and he sets it up by that skill. So it would be like sending and receiving would be a unit. I never really heard of people doing it that way, but my thought at the time was, Well, what a great way to set it up for a democratic approach, because we could probably spend five minutes listing all the different ways that you could rescind and receive an object and demonstrate success in that learning outcome. So I think the curriculum is is really conducive to what you what you've suggested. It's the teachers get more of a mindset that we're all going to be need to do this thing. But the curriculum, if you just take a step back and take a look at it, is generally more is more flexible and more conducive to what you suggested, yeah.

Douglas Gleddie: 33:44

And if I can jump in briefly, I think the other piece there is, there's there's skill connections like setting and receiving, but there's also tactical and strategic connections, like, I mean, that's the whole principle of TGF, you, right, but often we just think, no, I want to teach kids how to play rugby, but what you're really doing is you're teaching them how to move to open space. You're teaching them how to transition from offense to defense. So they can apply to ultimate, they can apply to basketball, they can apply to hockey, and then they can take elements of that and apply it elsewhere. So organizing things that way. And then we don't have time for this today, but then getting into the assessment like, Why do I assess someone at the end of their very first invasion, game unit at the beginning of the year. They need time to work on moving to open space, right?

Andy Vasily: 34:28

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what I've tried to emphasize, is this idea of assessment capable learners who self adjust, right? And that's really huge to me. So rarely will I be sitting there with a clipboard or a notepad checking off things. It's completely student driven and getting kids to identify that level of challenge and successes they're having, and really going after those exit tickets and entrance to. As much as possible to just gage where students are at with their learning and then adjust accordingly. And one of the things that I want to share is that you know the power of the exit ticket in the sense of how engaged were you today with your learning? So 3213, out of three, highly engaged. Two out of three. Engaged, but one out of three, not at all. So I say thank you for your honesty. Threes, you can go twos come over here, ones come over here. Let's say there's 10 of them. Okay, what's one thing you need more of or less of from me to turn your one into a two or two into a three? And valuable feedback. And a lot of times I find that that feedback becomes very social and emotional. There is something happening in the dynamics I don't know about, something's happening that causes them to and it might be that they simply don't like it. Okay, thank you for sharing. So what might I do differently to give you a different choice, you know, whatever it is, but the power of the exit ticket and truly assessing engagement and building kids capacity to be assessment capable and to self adjust their learning, of course, with My support. So again, the democratic approach of involving students as much as possible. So moving away from that stage on the stage to being that facilitator of learning, right? And the

Ty Riddick: 36:31

others want to ask you a follow up question in regards to challenge. How would you respond to someone if they were to say that when you give kids the different choices, and let's just say it's disc golf or frisbee that you are actually allowing them to opt out of a of a of a more difficult challenge for them.

Andy Vasily: 36:49

So at each station, I would have leveled challenges within the station, right? So if something is too difficult, there should be an adjustment at that station automatically. So if they opt out, then there's something they can level down to explore other options to find some success. So that's kind of how I approach it, a total opt out of everything we're doing. Well, something's going on there that I need to have a one to one mini conference with them to really figure it out. But the way that I try to engage the students is to have multiple entry points at each station. So if it's a net games unit, and we're working on forehands and backhands, or forehands at a station, and backhands might be another station, then the tennis racket and tennis ball with a forehand off the wall might be impossible for them. So then there's going to be a modified racket and a sponge ball, and then there's going to be a modified racket and a bigger, slower moving ball. And then there's going to be a balloon, you know, so that we try to engage them in order, you know, Mihai chick sent me highs work around flow, you know, to try to get them to find some type of flow in whatever it is they're doing. And I think, more often than not, when kids can understand when they're in flow, that's when they're going to make its accelerated growth, right? So it took years, you know, when we're at Coast to get students to understand this idea, I'm working with a team in Budapest Hungary that are awesome. They have embraced the meaningful PE features. Everything they do is about entry points, station, work, exploration and movement composition. They have dance, they have parkour, they have yoga, they have many different options. But that idea the kids now in Budapest, after five three years of doing this, we're going into our fourth year. Have the language of challenge. They have the language of just point entry, and they understand why it's important. So it takes time to put kids in a position where they're no longer evaluating themselves against their peers, they're evaluating themselves against themselves and their own progress. So there's no shame in using a balloon in a paddle or a tennis ball and a tennis racket, because it's about being in flow and being engaged, and knowing that being in flow is the yellow color, where mistakes are going to happen, but they're able to do it, but not quite so I think there was some evidence around from Stephen Cotler, world renowned researcher into the neuroscience of optimal flow says it's pushing people 4% beyond their comfort zone. 4% I don't know where they got that number, but it's pushing people 4% beyond their comfort zone, where you stumble a bit. Things are a bit clunky, but I can do it. Yeah, you know. So. That that would be my response. Ty,

Ty Riddick: 40:02

that's good. Yeah, we just just finishing up a volleyball unit where it taken me a while to introduce the concept of joy to kids, but we talked a little bit about freedom from time, or freedom from time is a good indicator of how you get there. And these, this group of six, six girls were playing volleyball, volleyballs, and, you know, probably not their favorite thing to do, but we have this one giant, small omnichan ball, and they played three on three on a half court for the entire class, and then as soon as we brought up so joy, they were just like, Can we do that again? You know, the next day? And it's because I think it was a even though it's not the traditional volleyball, it wasn't played with traditional rules. It was, you know, this giant ball they'll never, probably use an official game ever. It was that adjust right challenge for them that allowed them to actually create that rallied. You know, that's what I would argue, one of the most exciting parts about net games.

Andy Vasily: 40:53

So there's your flow, there's your differentiation, there's your engagement. And I guarantee in 10 years time, if somebody was to ask them about their PE experiences, they will reflect back and say, Yeah, I loved it. I was able to do things that I wanted, learn different games, and that's what it's about, you know, whereas in a traditional program, you know, a lot of people will say, pe sucked. I hated it. I wasn't an athlete. So many people on my podcast have said how much they hated PE when they were young, because they just they weren't engaged in it. They had, you know, teachers that didn't support that type of growth and learning. So Ty, you imagine what they're gonna the memories they're gonna have. Those experiences are going to be awesome, and that's what it's about, for sure.

Ty Riddick: 41:49

Shift a little bit to leadership. I don't know this isn't a derogatory term. When I describe you as, like myself, a middle level leader, we have some power, but not all the power to make all the decisions school Exactly. And so let's just say someone's listening and, you know, they're really eager to play around with pedagogical innovation, which, you know, we consider meaningful PE maybe an innovative practice. But they need to get their CO teachers, they need to get other people on the bus, you know, to go with them as a kind of a middle level leader. What advice would you be able to give for them?

Andy Vasily: 42:21

I would go back to asking a lot of questions about their experiences, first, you know, and understanding their background and their context and why they have developed some of the beliefs they have around teaching practice, and what those teaching practices or what those beliefs stem from. And often time I'll have the conversation about what comes up is oftentimes fear, so fear of authority, fear of having or having to be compliant as learners growing up, and that there was just no other way to do it. And then that fear extends into the fear of accountability, not being able to get students from point A to point B, and that they are responsible for outcomes and standards. And to really unpack that, and then to create a psychologically safe space for them to know that innovation and change, and making it student centered is what it's all about. So what are some micro changes we might be able to make, to put the focus more on students, instead of being teacher directed, and I think it's a safe way to approach the conversations, because there's no judgment with it. Everybody is where they're at just because that's the way it is, right. And then my job as a middle level leader, a coach, is to inspire them to understand that they can do things differently. And admin is not going to chop their head off. Admin will support it, because it's an innovative approach and it's student centered. So as long as you can explain why you're doing what you're doing and what you're hoping for, but collect data along the way to no level of engagement, to see kids progress, to get feedback on their experiences, you have the data to back it up, to say, hey, you know what? Kids are more engaged than they were last year because I've implemented, I've created these interventions, and I've implemented these ideas. So give them the freedom to explore and let them know that they're safe to do so, especially when the admin team is supportive of that type of innovation. So you know. So to sum up, I would say, just create the psychological safety needed for them to know that it's okay to innovate, but also invest time in building the relationship to truly understand why they have the beliefs that they have.

Ty Riddick: 44:56

OSHA had asked you that maybe a couple years ago, to save myself. Uh. Uh, some falling flat on my face. Moments Better late than never, I guess, yeah,

Douglas Gleddie: 45:05

but you, but you probably learned it better that way. Ty, well, we're getting, we're getting close to our, our regular time bell here, but maybe just quickly. Andy, what's what's next for you? For meaningful phys ed your roles. Where are you headed from here?

Andy Vasily: 45:25

Well, to continue to try to learn as much as I can about okay, I'll tell you a fantastic book that I recommend to everybody is called 10 to 25 the science of motivating young people, by Dr David Jaeger from the University of Texas in Austin, and he was mentored by Carol Dweck. So he learned under Carol Dweck, and he has since taken Carol Dweck in a Carol Dweck work to the next level. Now Carol Dweck is supporting him and presenting with him based on his ideas, but what he talks about is this idea that we just need to use the right language with young people, and we need to be as transparent as possible about what our intentions are. And there's a lot of complaints from adults and teachers around the world saying kids are young, people are lazy, they're entitled. They don't want to work hard, and his work shows that that's not true. We just have to shift our thinking as professionals, and we have to change the conversations. And I'll tell you one quick story to demonstrate this that sums up everything to me in the direction that I want to go and teaching and learning. But in the book, I had David Yeager on the podcast a couple months ago. But in in the book, he talks about following him and his team followed police officer in Austin, and this police officer had the lowest incidence incidents, the lowest percentage of confrontations with people in the public turning violent in all of the US, like a crazy statistic like it just seemed Like whenever this officer showed up, he was able to de escalate everything, and he didn't even know what he was doing. He just did it. And then Jaeger and his team followed him, and there was a call that they had to go to at a 711 where there was a young black student in a white community that was loitering in the store, and the clerk called 911, so the cop shows up, and he goes up to the 14 year old, and he says, you know, like you're you're staying in the store. You shouldn't be just staying in the store, either you buy something or you gotta go. And he said, Yes, I know I'm loitering, but what you don't know is that my mom sent me on a I had to pick up some groceries or whatever, and I missed the free bus home, and I'm just building up the courage to ask somebody for bus money. And then the police officer says, Okay, well, thank you for sharing that. I want you to know, because it was a 911 call I have to pat you down. And I'm not implying you're guilty, but it's just part of our protocol. So are you okay if I pat you down? And the kid said, Yes, puts his hands up in the cup, searches him, nothing and nothing on him at all. And he said, Okay, so Well, first of all, let's give you a ride home. Okay? And just talk to you. And so he gives this kid a ride home. And when the kid gets out of the car, he said, officer, I want you to know that I've always been afraid of police officers, and you're the first police officer that has ever shown me any kind of respect at all. So Jaeger and his team are so moved by this interaction, and he calls it the transparency statement, which means being as intentional and transparent as possible about why you're doing what you're doing, and that it's in the best interest of young people, and that transparency statement has such a powerful impact on engaging young people in whatever they're they're pursuing, you know. So it's not that they're, you know, lazy, entitled. Don't want to work hard, they just need to be spoken to differently and treated differently. So what's next for me is really unpacking that, yeah, you know, as a leadership coach, as a teacher, as a teacher coach is, how can we be more explicit about the language that we use to create psychology? Safety, to let young people know that we care about them, that we want what's best, which means we have to listen to them, and we have to involve them in their learning as much as possible, and to use that feedback we get from them to create deeper conditions for learning, to better engage them. So that's kind of what's next for me. Yeah,

Douglas Gleddie: 50:23

no, that's great. Lots to think about there. I love that, that transparency statement, that's what you call it, yeah, yeah, because that's so you know, to go back to Ty's question about, you know, being a leader and helping shift change. That's part of it too. Just being very transparent, like this is why I'm doing what I'm doing, and especially the kids, like, you know, once, once you get them on board that way, that's, yeah, that's fantastic. So maybe you kind of, we've, we've been ending our podcast with most of our guests by kind of saying, what advice would you give to those who are just, just starting to meander into the meaningful PE world and just starting to enter that kingdom, if you will. Couple words of key advice, yeah,

Andy Vasily: 51:07

go right back to the exploration before explanation. And in the first part of the unit, whether it be the first week or two weeks, depending on resources, space equipment, try to create stations based on whatever unit you're doing and allow them to explore. And maybe the first couple lessons are groups of kids moving from one station to the next. The second week is go to the stations that most resonate with you. If it's full there's too many people just go to another station and find your way around. But to use that driving question, which is, whatever you want it to be, what did you enjoy most today in your learning? What was most challenging for you? What do you want to try next class, but to collect that data from them, but also check in with that level of engagement, whether it be a scale one to five or one to three, but it's easy for teachers to set up stations, right? Be okay with letting them explore. So I think that's, that's the, what I would say is the entry point for a teacher new to this meaningful PE framework,

Douglas Gleddie: 52:17

yeah, no, that's really helpful. Andy, and I think I can't remember, it may have been Kyle, who we had on an earlier podcast, and we just published an article based on some of the work in his school. But when his kids were doing exit tickets and stuff, and then he made changes to how we run the class, the kids like, Oh, I didn't really realize you actually read those. Like, so that's part of that transparency piece, right? Like, I'm not just collecting this to make you do work. I'm collecting this because I want to make your experience better. So yeah, well, there's so much more we could we could talk about Andy, but I think we'll draw this one to a close. We have to get you back on in season two, and I really want to talk further down the road about your applications of just meaningful learning, like this framework, this is meaningful learning, but we'll have to save that for another day. But thanks for being here, brother.

Andy Vasily: 53:06

Yeah. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Ty, thanks. Great to connect with you again.

Ty Riddick: 53:11

Thanks, Andy, thank you for tuning into the meaningful podcast experience. Hopefully you've taken away some ideas on how you could modify your teaching practice to allow kids to explore an activity or an environment prior to an explanation, and know that through providing student agency, they are capable of creating meaningful experiences for themselves. For me, personally, I'm left thinking about Andy's question of what is possible, what is possible for my students and in my context?

Douglas Gleddie: 53:41

Yeah, that's a great question to think about. Ty, I will continue to think about the same thing from a pre service teacher perspective, especially. Really enjoyed that episode. Thanks so much Andy for coming on. Just on a side note, the MPE book, which is in the show notes and has been mentioned in quite a few of our podcasts, including this one. Ash Casey, who is the series editor for Rutledge, and this focus on praxis and sport pedagogy let us know that sales are closing in on 2000 copies, and there are direct sales of print copies in 28 countries, including North America, Europe, Africa, Asia and Australasia, but nothing in Antarctica yet. But ash tells us he's not given up hope as well, the ebook usage is kind of cool, showing as 16,909 total chapter requests. So that's that's kind of cool. And all this is to really just say it's great to see the framework getting out in the world, into the hands of teachers and researchers,

Ty Riddick: 54:36

speaking of getting out into the world. Want to give a big shout out to our one listener in Bandung West Java, Indonesia. Thank you for tuning in. You.