The Meaningful Podcast Experience (MPE)

Bonus: Belonging, Acceptance and Valuing the Student Experience: Making meaningful connections to inclusive practice w/ Dr. Hayley Morrison

• Ty and Doug • Season 1

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This episode introduces Dr. Hayley Morrison, an Associate Professor in the Faculty of Education at the University of Alberta. She teaches health and physical education curriculum and pedagogy courses to undergraduate students and instructs graduate courses in educational research and inclusive health and physical education. Her research areas include inclusive/adaptive physical education, health and physical education teacher education, and professional development. Check out her faculty profile page for more about Dr. Morrison and you can also find her on X: @Ms_HMorrison. 

In this episode, we talk about her inclusive HPE work with teachers, EAs and students; 'teaching for all'; connections between principles of inclusion and meaningful PE and much more! 

Links mentioned in the episode:

Thanks to Isaiah Gleddie for the guitar pieces, SSHRC for some funding and our guests for sharing!

Douglas Gleddie:

Ty. Hello, folks. You are listening to the meaningful podcast. Experience with myself, Doug Gleddie and

Ty Riddick:

I'm Ty Riddick. The purpose of this podcast is to engage in conversations with those enacting meaningful physical education, both in terms of research as well as in their teaching practice and everything that falls in between.

Douglas Gleddie:

All right, welcome to the meaningful podcast experience. I'm super happy to be here with Dr Hayley Morrison, a good friend and colleague at the University of Alberta. Haley, do you mind just introducing yourself and a little short background as to how you got your current role as an associate prof here?

Hayley Morrison:

Yeah. So hi everyone. Hayley Morrison, here, came out to Edmonton from Ontario, here in Canada, and I've been at the Faculty of Education as a professor for about six years, I started as an instructor after I finished my PhD, moving out here was a great thing for me. I've been working with inclusion and adapted physical activity and physical education for the last 15 years or so.

Douglas Gleddie:

Hey, awesome. So speaking of inclusive health and phys ed. Nice segue. So first off, and I'm going to shake this up from some of the questions that I had, and for the folks that are listening, we try to have some structured questions, but also really strive to have more of a free flowing conversation. I don't know that we always succeed, but we try. So I'm going to throw, I'm going to throw a dark one at you here. Haley, um, why? Why inclusion? Like, why did you end up in that area of health and phys ed? Obviously, you have other areas of expertise too, but inclusion has been your kind of main focus.

Hayley Morrison:

Yeah. So for me, when I say inclusion, I'm talking mainly about having individuals who experience disability feel like they belong within a physical education environment and setting that they are motivated to learn in that area. So when I started working in an adaptive program at Brock University, that was my first real big introduction with doing adaptive programming and specialized programming for children with disabilities. And I kind of realized that some people either can do it and like doing it really well, and then other people have no idea what to do and they don't really enjoy it. And that's okay, that's it's a, you know, a range of who we like to work with and who we choose to work with, and we should be able to do that, but coming from an education background and teaching background, I just saw a lot of gaps that were happening in schools, mainly with the inclusion around teachers and educational assistants working together. So that's what really brought me to inclusion, was I wanted to try to figure out and support that relationship, because to me, it's the whole class environment and the relationships and the people involved in there that really attribute to what inclusion can look like and how it can be experienced by by kids in schools.

Douglas Gleddie:

Mm, hmm, yeah. And your your EA work is really in intriguing because it's kind of based on Dewey's theory of experience as well, and that that relatedness and continuity and those kind of things, and just, you know, how do we in in phys ed, especially, work with EAS, especially those one on one EAS for particular students, or for particular maybe two or three students. Can you share a little bit about your findings and what you're doing. You've got a you've got a current short grant on that, right?

Hayley Morrison:

Yeah, so I'm working on how we can be actually implementing a framework that I've been working on for many years that coincides with Yes, Dewey's theory of experience, and really unpacking our past and how that's informing what we do within the classroom, as well as the literature on effective professional development, which we know in phys ed, it comes down to working as a community of practice or in collaboration with people who have a similar goal in mind, and teachers and EAS they have that same goal of making students have, you know, a positive learning experience in the class. And so I'm trying to implement and see, does this actually work in an in service manner? So how can we be doing this more regularly in like a built environment set up, instead of like a PD, where you have to go away, you learn some things and then you bring it back. It's actually working with the culture of the school and the students to try to figure out how we can be creating that kind of environment and atmosphere. But we learn along the way. So we have those experiences. We get introduced to new activities, new ways of thinking about the activities we're teaching. Introduced to maybe resources. Or webinars that we can take, and then we come back together and we talk about that and we and it's just like an ongoing process of implementation, refinement, reflection and change as we're teaching, which it's to me, it seems pretty obvious that, you know, teachers who are really in tune with their own professional growth. They do this sort of professional development all the time. But when you're talking about teachers and EAS together, because they have such distinct roles, and, you know, different job descriptions, that I'm trying to bring them together on this journey, instead of having it be separate, which that's what I'm finding, a big disconnect for the kids with disabilities in schools is, is that, though the learning is happening too separate, it's not happening together, and that's actually impeding what's going on in the class.

Douglas Gleddie:

Yeah, and that that really, again, not to make it all about Dewey, but it goes back to that, that paper by armor at all about Dewey and like, I can't remember the exact title right now, but you know the one I'm talking about. And one of the key components is, and I'm going to paraphrase, but it's recognizing the dazzling complexity of schools and teaching and so that embedded PD, and we could do a whole another podcast on PD and and how it all works and should work. But what I find striking about what you just said, too, is that when you come in there and you're in their space with them, you see the students you're you're more part of a team than this external person. And I do think that makes, I hope that allows for them to push back a little bit against you sometimes and say, No, wait a minute, like, that's all nice. You come from the ivory tower, but here's what it is here. And you can go, Yeah, I know, but let's talk further about this. Let's embed it. And I think you can push them a little bit too, right, in saying, let's, let's try something. Let's do something different. It may fail. That's okay. We'll learn from that failure. Yeah.

Hayley Morrison:

And I think what my research actually really showed was that having like an outsider or third party individual like myself to help guide conversations and it be in a very open way. So I used focus groups in my research, but the focus group itself actually was professional learning for them, and it was time that they got to actually sit and talk about what was going on. And they realized their, you know, the challenges that they were facing, or more about each other, just within an hour focus group that was literally pick up a card that said, um, activities in PE or dance. And then they talked about dance and what they were doing, and then all these new things came out that the teacher didn't even realize that the EA and the student loved to dance and they were doing it. But because there was, you know, a lot of programming happening separately, and the student wasn't always involved in the class, or the class wasn't always structured to allow for that student to be present, they kind of realize, oh, we can be doing this better. And it just came down to having somebody say, let's have a conversation about what's going on. And so I don't think that has to be a researcher, but you know who in the school is helping facilitate those kind of conversations and and that's kind of where I'm looking and going and saying, How can this be in that built environment? How can we be facilitating this community of practice and actually have it ingrained within the whole school community so it can be something that's more sustained and build those relationships?

Douglas Gleddie:

Yeah, and I think you're right having someone come in and act as a catalyst, or, you know, just to ask some of those questions. And you know, I think I've mentioned this little story to you before, but when Andrea, my wife, was teaching in a very, excuse me, challenging grade two class, they had a consultant come in, but all the consultant did is come in and say, Do this, do that. And she's like, I've tried that. I've tried that, like I've I've done this. And finally, she said to the consultant, how about, you know, I just turned my class over to you for the next half hour, and you show me how to do it, and they can tell, oh no, no, no, I would never presume to teach you. And that's exactly the wrong way to go about that stuff, right?

Hayley Morrison:

You're right. Because when I first started consulting in Ontario, that's what happened, was I wasn't like, just giving them ideas or telling them, but I needed to also prove myself to them and show them that I could work with the kids and get in there and and that made a big difference, because then they could see me model some of the strategies which may have been different than what they were doing, like first, then that strategy. So it's first we're going to color, then we're going to play with the beanbags. You know? It's like, okay, in the classroom. And I remember this vividly being like a kindergarten classroom that I was in. And so it was like, they were like, well, you you take them and you show and I was like, Sure. Like, no problem. Like, and so as an. External person coming into those spaces. You do have to get in there, and you can't just give those ideas. It's, it's about, you know, working as a team. And I think that that is what I think a big thing about inclusion is, is working as a team. And when I think about meaningfulness and meaningful PE, I also think that that's the teacher working as a team with the students, right? And so much of it is student centered, and I see a lot of alignment there with inclusion and that kind of philosophy, yeah,

Douglas Gleddie:

and it, you know, we just, we had Andy vastly on the podcast while we, we recorded it yesterday, and it's going to release actually, after your episode, but there's some interesting connections there, because he talked too about in his role as a coach in the school, and he doesn't, he doesn't see himself as modeling teaching, but rather coming in and just saying, well, let's co teach, let's, let's do this together. And so I think there's, there's a lot of that that resonates. And he talked about, and I'm going to, I thought I wrote it down. I didn't, it'll come up in the notes, but talked about, just about transparency and and one of the things we talked about with meaningful Phys Ed is how, how that transparency is such a key part, like, it's not one of the features that have been identified thus far. It's not one of the pedagogical principles. But I'm beginning to think it might be that transparency of you know, this is why we're doing this. And also, we talked a lot about the vocabulary, so maybe just before we jump into and thanks for that wonderful segue again, right into meaningful PE, well, played, my friend, yes. Can you give us your definition of inclusion and health and phys ed?

Hayley Morrison:

Yeah, so I take this definition here, specifically from Nancy Spencer in kinesiology, sport and recreation, and her colleague Jane Watkinson, who she did a lot of work with. They talk about in one of their papers that inclusion is a sense of belonging. It's acceptance and its value from individuals experiences. And so in a school environment, inclusion sometimes is looked at as the space. So it's an integrated space where students who experience disability are also in the same space as able bodied individuals or those who don't experience disability. But for me, I don't think that it's a space. I think it's a subjective experience, so it's something that I can't fully determine if it's actually happening. It has to come down to the student. But there are things and ways I can go about supporting inclusion and supporting inclusive experiences that's that's kind of my version and how I've been viewing inclusion these days, because I know it has shifted and changed a lot in in my career. For me, it still comes down to the student experience and how they're feeling like they're being supported in that space.

Douglas Gleddie:

Okay, can you share that definite definition again, like the key words there, what was that again?

Hayley Morrison:

Yeah, a sense of belonging, acceptance, yep. And value from an individual's experience, right? Okay,

Douglas Gleddie:

and I'll, I'll get the, I'll get the link for the paper from you after the after we chat here, so I can put it in the show notes. But great, that just really, I haven't, I'm sure you've shared that with me in the past, but it just kind of hit me harder today, because I think that that is a key piece of when we talk about phys ed as a historical entity and as this thing we're trying to do. A lot of the issues with phys ed, to me, spring from not feeling a sense of belonging, not feeling accepted for who I am and what I can or cannot do, and not valuing my own experiences. So you know the fantastic dancer that's in phys ed, that's only team sports, and never given that chance to do that, right? So that's really cool. And I also think it's really interesting, because what I what I heard you say there, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but, like, you can set, you can set the stage for inclusion. You can have the ingredients there, but you can't guarantee inclusion. You want it to happen. And that's very similar to meaningfulness. Like, I can't just say Haley, this podcast for you is going to be meaningful and will be meaningful. And I can't do that, right? And in my class, I can't just say, Hey kids, by the time you leave here, you're gonna just feel some meaningfulness with something. Yeah, I hope for that. I hope for elements of that, but you can't guarantee it, so I love the connections between that idea of, you know, inclusion is a goal. Mm. Inclusion is where we want people to be, and meaningfulness is a goal, and we can't guarantee it in the moment, but we can figure out the conditions, we can get the best conditions so that kids feel they belong, they feel they're accepted, and they feel that their experience and who they are is valued. That's, that's yeah, that's sweet. I like that,

Hayley Morrison:

yeah. And I'm gonna go back to your point there about transparency, Doug, because I think, you know, we're not there. There's lots of in the literature about and even with meaningful PE about, it's not just fun, like fun is that go, you know, we want to have fun, but, and, but students, if we're transparent about why we're doing what we're doing and how we're doing it. And you let them know when you set them up and say, you know, yeah, this week we're focused on we're focused on these movement skills, and we're focused on this social emotional component. We're focused on this health related outcome, like these are the three big goals that we want to talk about this week. But guess what? Next week might be more your jam. We're going to be these ones. And so if they understand why we're moving from one to the next, especially when you get up, like, I think grade four onward, like we can be way more open and transparent with that, you know, the cognitive development and understanding and and even with, like, our talking to our EAS, tell them why we're doing what we're doing, so that they have an understanding of it. And then, you know, students might have more fun if they realize it's only for a short amount of time, but when they're set up with these units that are so long, to me, that doesn't really that's not a strategy for inclusion is long units because there's not enough variety and variability in what we're doing, and that is, like, really hard for a lot of ranges of disabilities, just in general, but at the same time, you can't just change it up every single day, because then we're not, you know, we're not getting time to practice skills. And you know, there needs to be routine, there needs to be consistency. So there are so many factors, but I think that that element of transparency there really can help us set up that environment to be more inclusive as well.

Douglas Gleddie:

Yeah, and it's interesting. We talked about that with Andy yesterday, too. Ty and I and and Ty sends his regrets, by the way, he was just intimidated by you. He was like, I don't know if I can be on there with Haley.

Hayley Morrison:

Did I renege his research assistantship

Douglas Gleddie:

No, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Yeah, we position? talked yesterday about about interchangeable units and long like, sometimes, like, you know, we mentioned that, you know, Steph Beni talks about a skipping unit, and, you know, Andy's, Andy's big thing that his entry point with meaningful P is that challenge piece that just right challenge and helping students. And that's, by its very nature, is very inclusive, because it's, it's what's the challenge for you? It's not, oh, that's your challenge. It's my challenge, and so, but what we talked about there is that, that transparency and being able to give people an understanding, it also allows them to go, Well, yeah, I'm I don't really like dance, but I can come to appreciate it. And I appreciate it maybe because my best friend loves to dance, or I appreciate it because it gives other students a chance to shine, and then when it comes to netball, it's my chance to shine, and I can share my love for netball with them like they share their love for dance with me. So it also sets up those kind of things, right? But even your, even for those, those littles, right? Like the little kids, the strategy you just shared that first, then, yeah, that's part of that's transparency, because, because you're, you're gonna say, you know, first we're gonna dribble the ball up and down the gym, then we're gonna start throwing them at targets, you know, whatever. And it's just, and it's, you're not giving all the explanation, but you're giving enough. Yeah, so since we're diving down the MPE rule, you're familiar with the framework, I'm sure you've read the book several times and all articles, all you

Hayley Morrison:

autographed it for me, too.

Douglas Gleddie:

I'm pretty sure I did, pretty sure. You have to get all four that's the tricky part. You have to get all four signatures. Mine is easy,

Hayley Morrison:

but I can do that. I'm gonna that's a new, new challenge. Challenge accepted. There you go, like it.

Douglas Gleddie:

So how might you see the meaningful PE framework and the philosophy contributing to that kind of enhanced inclusion and a broad scope like well, you, you wrote a book chapter along with Clive Hickson in the book that we use in our in our undergrad classes. And the title of that was teaching for all, and that was a purposeful title of, you know, how do we make sure we include everyone in our teaching? So, yeah, how do you think it might contribute or play a role in Yeah,

Hayley Morrison:

because I. Actually been doing a little bit of work with the lamp group. So the learning about meaningful PE, I dove into understanding those democratic principles and pedagogies a little bit further, and I thought that that was like a really great frame that aligns a lot with inclusion and and during the we were doing a collaborative self study. And during that, I kind of struggled with, like, yeah, how is like inclusion different than meaningful? PE, like, how is it different or similar, right? And same with democratic principles. Like, it is very similar, but one uniqueness of the like inclusion work and philosophies, I think that connects, but also might be an area for for folks who are implementing meaningful PE might want to go down a little bit further is how, how is that democratic principles being applied to like parents and caregivers and EAS because we talk about setting up and using those principles in the classroom with students, right? And that might be going back to your chat with Andy about how that co teaching happens and whatnot in the in the space. But when it comes to inclusion, I think we have to also remember the multiple other individuals that are involved in the student experience for those kids, because it's not just their peers, right? Their peers are one big thing that I think, you know, teachers probably do a really good job at, is setting up students to work with each other. Well, really focus on that social integration thing. I think that they that that is a big perception of inclusion is happening because they're with their peers and stuff, and I think that's great. But when it comes, when I look at the philosophy there of the Democratic stuff, how we're approaching, you know, our teaching, we need to remember that there's these other people involved, and they are big influencers on how those students are being included or integrated, and how those students are experiencing inclusion in that space. So that was kind of one thing when okay, I thought about those goals and how they could bounce off each other. And I really also liked the emphasis of meaningful phys ed on goal setting, yeah, and alongside students. So that was another big thing for like, when it comes to, like, the kind of the groundings or the places there,

Douglas Gleddie:

okay, so can I go back? And I really like this, like, I almost look at it as inclusion, plus, like, it's who are the other people around? Right? And, dear, I'm sure you remember, but when we taught, I don't know if we did it the first time we taught that 420 class, the you know, kind of becoming a wellness champion in your school when we brought the parents in from the steadridge Center. Yep, that was just, it's moving that illustrates your point perfectly, because it was this for the student teachers to hear the parent perspective and to hear them I just, I just want them to treat my child like Tommy. He's just Tommy. He's not Tommy with a ADHD, he's not Tommy in a wheelchair. He's just Tommy. And those are the teachers that I love that we're able to do that with him. And so just, you know, that's one little piece of advice, but so that's, that's really cool, and I could actually see what's more than cool, it's just fundamental. That's all but.

Hayley Morrison:

And Doug, I'll bring up just kind of, like, a contentious point on that around inclusion that folks listening might not know. So I mentioned that, like, is it this setting, or like inclusion, to me, is the student experience, right? It's that belonging, acceptance, that value. But for parents, all of those three or four parents that we had there Doug, they all had their kids in different settings. So they had, one of them was in a separate school, where it was just a school for students with disabilities, right? Like, that's, that's what it was, the you know? And then different ages, some when you move into junior high and high school, there's a lot more separate classes, whether it's a behavior class, right? And then there's our integrated or inclusive classes here in Alberta, specifically in our mainly our elementary schools, we see all students moving alongside everybody at the same time, so there's a lot less of of the separation that happens. But the parents, it came down to, where is the most care and support that's going to have for my kid, right? And that's how they viewed inclusion was their own from their own perspective. Now that might be different from what the students perspective is, but that's why I think we do need to open it up to more individuals that are involved in the process, to better understand where they're coming from and why, to help us with with our planning, our goal setting for. For for those kids,

Douglas Gleddie:

yeah, and I look at it, it's that, I don't know if this phrase is in vogue anymore, but like, wraparound services, where you know you've got everything there that you need, and so when you're when you're considering the parents, and I'm wondering, you know, for meaningful PE, like, there's some hints of this in the personal relevance piece. And we do talk a lot about, like, the different contexts of different schools and and neighborhoods and communities, but I wonder about that, you know, consideration of that wraparound that like, what is the overall environment that the student is in their home life, their community? What clubs are they in? What you know, like, I remember doing a before I planned my junior high phys ed back in the early 2000s I sent a little survey on my like, what do you do daily now? Like, what do you do? And every single kid played soccer, yeah. So I was like, Why should I bother having soccer. They've got all this opportunity for soccer outside there, right? So it's, it's that kind of thing, and it's, again, it's to me, it speaks to goes back to the definition you shared, but it's valuing people's individual experiences and what they bring to the table, and that includes their experiences in the community. Yeah,

Hayley Morrison:

yeah. And when I was kind of reflecting myself on the different features of meaningful PE, when you talked about personal relevance there Doug, one thing I often do when I'm going into schools is I link it back to life skills, right? And I link it back to the whole child. So where Pe gets a bad rep is because sometimes we only think it's the physical. Now I think that's such a unique part of PE that it is one of the only subject areas that focuses on the physical. But there's so much more to that holistic development of kids and how we can be influencing the life skills outside of the classroom. And so I always use the example of an overhand throw, like if you right now, just try to do an overhand throw without a ball in your hand, right? Okay? Now, make sure you follow through all the way. Well, I always tell my students in order to put your seat belt on in the front seat or back seat, you have to be able to reach back to your shoulder, and you have to be able to clip it in to the opposite side, right? So right there, we're crossing the midline with our body. A lot of kids with autism actually avoid doing midline crossing when they're babies, and that's when we learn that developmental skill. So me, I try to bring it back to, you know, the tummy time, the maybe that's just because I'm now a mom of a two year old, but like you, think of all these coordination and skills that they learn, and sometimes teachers need to actually understand that it's about the life skills beyond the classroom. So yes, do overhand throwing, but when you're looking at students who are struggling with it, link it to a skill that they use in their daily life so that they can understand. And then they might actually build that movement pattern more easily than just being and thinking, Oh, I have to throw this ball to the target, and then they forget to follow through. And then it's, you know, it more inaccurate, right? So it's, it's processing some of that stuff and thinking about, why am I doing this skill right? The bowling, while opening and closing the dishwasher, like it's, it's thinking about that movement pattern and how it might link. And again, this depends on the age and the range and disability of individuals too. But for me, I was, like, just as anyone knowing that or learning that, that's kind of important, it's kind of cool, right? Just like it's cool to see Connor McDavid doing like, dance. And David thinks, right, yeah. But like, I my husband and I watched that special of his where, after his injury, his kind of and, like, watching him do all this pool work, watching him do all of the gymnastics and the core work and things that he was doing. Like, if that's not motivating for anybody who likes hockey, to try out all these different types of movement forms to support their skills at hockey. Like, I don't know what else could be like, I was motivated to do it more, to be better, right? So it's, it's finding things like that that might actually, you know, help kids find more meaning in the variety, which, to me, also supports like them having more inclusive types of activities and skills, rather than just the traditional things that they're used to experiencing, but experiencing it in a different way well,

Douglas Gleddie:

and it, excuse me, it comes back to the transparent conversations again, right? It's, it's having these conversations and connecting it to life skills, connecting it to brain development, to the whole child. Like, you know we, I know both of us do juggling with our classes, and I do juggling because it's cool and it's a fun thing to show people, but it also has crossing the midline, and you have to track across. And it helps people realize how one hand dominant they are sometimes. And so we can, you know, move off of that. But if you look at it in a holistic way, it checks all those boxes, right? So to have those, those transparent conversations with students and and to trust them like they don't. They don't know everything that's good for them. They don't, but they know a lot, but they know a lot, right? And so the other thing that came out of my conversation, or my entire conversation with Andy yesterday that I thought I didn't really say much about it, I said a little bit towards the end, I think. But this whole idea of, what is the culture in your health and phys ed class, yeah, what is the culture in your gym. It is a culture of a safe place to take risks. It is a cult. Is it a culture of belonging, acceptance and valuing people? You know, those go a long way, but I think it's also that culture of transparency, that culture of this is why I'm setting this up for you. This is why we're doing dance, this is why we're doing bowling, etc, etc. So I think that you know, it all kind of, to me, it all kind of boils down to culture, right? Yeah.

Hayley Morrison:

And for listeners like Doug and I are very well aware that it doesn't. The kids don't just accept you telling them that right at the start, embedding that regularly and in showcasing and doing it, the it's, you know, it's one of those practices that it has to take some traction. It's going to take some time. Oh yeah, it does good. Point Man, is it going to be more appreciated? And you know that what happens in my pre service classes too, right? You see it. You just see the a little bit more of that, that openness, and I'll go back to stuff I've learned from Tim the teaching about teaching right, and that kind of loans work on the pedagogies of teacher education and stuff. I think we can bring that into the K to 12 system, bringing that that kind of knowledge and how we're talking to students and making them a part of the learning, and I think is super important,

Douglas Gleddie:

yeah, and thanks for making that point, because it's not, it's not something that just happens overnight, yeah, and I've shared this before. I don't know about on this podcast, but my my best time teaching Phys Ed was when I was in a junior high, and I finally had those grade nines, and I had them in grade seven and grade eight, but it took until the third year to for us to really get to know each other. And I taught every male student in the school. And so it was like, and, you know, I got to know at least half or three quarters of the females. But it was, it was that that space of trust, and they also knew that if they gave me a suggestion, I would actually consider it, and then they could see it come to fruition in the next class or the next unit, or whatever it was. And it wasn't perfect, and we made mistakes, and, you know, we went through and did that too, but, yeah, I think it does. It takes that time. It doesn't happen overnight. And it's like, it's like, building trust, right? And you give the respect right off the bat, and you and you go from there, yeah? And

Hayley Morrison:

maybe I'll just chime in. I'll say one thing. I didn't want to leave this podcast without saying I was when I was thinking there about the principles and philosophies of MPE and inclusion and stuff. I was thinking about this idea of reflection and how important that is for meaningful PE but what I thought that I wanted listeners to think about and the MPE folks is the idea and diving deeper into reflexivity, because that is so critical in my work and the work around inclusion, you know, like, I'll also share a link for readers about language and disability. And you know why in this podcast, we're saying individuals with a disability versus disabled student, which is more commonly used right now, because we want the individual to be able to have their own, you know, identity first. And so I'll share some stuff about that. But for me, it's this critical self reflection, so reflexivity, that I think teachers can learn a lot about doing, of of really unpacking what our assumptions are, our values, the actions that we're doing, you know, being transparent with ourselves, like coming to understand, well, why did I do this? Why did I, you know, tell the EA and the student to go into the other class? Was I just making an assumption that it was too loud in here for that kid? Or did I ask them first, like, could I have what did I need to do differently? Right? And I think that that really shifts us into this space of being more inclusive is if we're able to be more reflexive on our decision making, on our assumptions that we have as teachers and why we're doing what we're doing, I think can push us a long way with inclusion and actually being more open and transparent with students. The class, yeah,

Douglas Gleddie:

and I and thanks for bringing up that point, because I, I had that on my list as well, in terms of the connections based on reflection and reflexivity, because it also in both the meaningful PE framework, and I would think inclusion, it's also encouraging students to engage in Reflection, right? And you know, Tim, Tim makes that point in one of his papers about, you know, we often feel we don't have the time to do this, but you don't have the time not to do this, because it's, again, it's not about getting kids fit or skilled in the moment. It's about preparing them for a lifetime, hopefully, of healthy, active activity within their context, their community, their constraints, everything else. But so that that reflective practice is is key. How do you like so you're you teach pre service teachers, and you engage in research, and you know you've you're the you're the parent of a fabulous two year old, and all the joys and pains that that that brings but how do you build reflection into your practice? Haley,

Hayley Morrison:

um, yeah, that's a great question to me. It's, it's like constant and it's consistent. I think that I also have, haven't been teaching lately, but I've been really thinking about how I'm going to do that more thoughtfully throughout the class. And so I'm going to be teaching a grad class this summer, and I've actually decided to have like, journal reflection time for the very at the very beginning and the very end of class, so we can be whether it's writing down or if students want to color or draw or whatever, you know, different modes of forms of self expression and stuff to have. So it is building that time into the class for my undergrads. I've always had reflection questions from that are related to the content, but also related to what I would hope that they'd be taking away, like some of those implicit things that you know we don't always make explicit when we're teaching things that they should be thinking about and giving time for them to kind of ask questions and reflect with me too. So having that, having that space in class, sitting down with them, having more one on one or smaller group, things I find in in the teacher education to work really well. It not only does it help me with the relationship building of students, but I think it helps them be more open to reflect on on their thinking and reflect on their own experiences. So those are just some of the basic things, but one thing that we've done, that I've really enjoyed is that autobiographical narrative inquiry process and using that as like a reflective tool throughout and so I kind of adapted it in my class. So at the end of the whole semester, they also looked back at their stories and and connected it and said, Okay, so what are some of the key things you've taken away from the course, and how does that help you as the teacher looking at this experience that you had so your narrative, I want you to tell me what you do differently, or tell me what went really well based on the content and the pedagogies that you've learned, to bring it back to that piece of reflection. And yeah, that kind of assignment embedded throughout, I think, really is creating those opportunities for reflection to happen more consistently.

Douglas Gleddie:

Yeah, yeah. And then I think when you create opportunities in class, whether it's with small groups or pairs, to share what they've learned from those things, then it just it keeps that cycle going, right? Because I think for me, my favorite form of reflective practice, for me is this. It's critical friends saying, Hey, I had something happen in my phys ed class that I'm not happy about, or that I'm really happy about, but I don't know why. And you know, you know that that office conversation, the equipment room conversation, whatever it is, but and sometimes it's just listening to something like this and going, Oh, okay, I wonder how that applies to me, but I do find the conversation and that that, you know, having a critical friend, like from the self study perspective, is it's so key someone that you trust, who you know you might go and you know, to bring this back a little bit to inclusion. Maybe it's like, if I have a student in my class that I'm just I'm really struggling with how to include them better. I would trust you to say, hey, like, can you just come? Just come in and hang out in my class and just, please tell me what I'm effing up. Tell me what I could be doing. And if you're like, you know what you're doing, everything. Great. It just takes time then I can be like, okay, okay, I just that's good. But you know, having that person you trust, and often it's hard for phys ed teachers in schools, because especially if you're in a smaller school, you might be the only one. So one, and that can be difficult sometimes, but it's important.

Hayley Morrison:

Yeah, no. And I think that comes back to the work I do within the PD Doug, and that's about finding the community of practice, or finding the critical friends that will support you, and sometimes that's in house. So. Times that's there, sometimes it's outside. And you know, it does take a little bit of initiative for us to go to conferences and meet people, to take a risk and email somebody be like, Hi, Haley, I heard you on a podcast. I have some questions. You know, I might know people in your area that I'm happy to connect with, like Twitter. I've always share that with my students and say, you know, you might want to start following people I follow, and then follow people they follow, to find a community that you can actually learn from and get PD resources from. And you know, these different ways about connecting can help us have not only a way to gain information, but as an outlet to share kind of our stories and experiences to learn from and share with other people too,

Douglas Gleddie:

totally and that. And when you open up with someone, it encourages them to open up with you. And it's just that learning cycle. So, so we like to kind of wrap up our podcast with advice and for yours. And I sent you this in advance so you could think about it, but so that yours is two parts. So what advice do you have for people who are already engaged with meaningful phys ed? They've they're keen on it, they're implementing it in some way that fits their context, but they're maybe looking to enhance their inclusive practice. And then the second part is to flip it. What advice would you have for people who are super keen on inclusion, but have never really looked at meaningful phys ed,

Hayley Morrison:

yeah, I did jot some notes down, so concise for the MP years out there, you know, continue to talk to your students because their voices matter, but don't forget about going beyond the classroom to the whole community so all Those other individuals that impact inclusion, whether it's parents, caregivers, EAS, peers, consultants, OTs, physios, community organizations, all of that is super critical for inclusion, and I think you know you've probably started doing this reflection, but be more reflexive. Think about your own assumptions about why you're doing what you're doing, your assumptions about a student's disability, your assumptions about a student's background, and try to learn from those assumptions and engage with maybe a critical friend like we brought up there. I think that's a good way to really think about what we're doing and why we're doing it, and you might have to shift your thinking and understanding of that student in order to be more inclusive. And then my advice for the inclusion is, well, I really do embrace the meaningful phys ed framework in my own teaching in both my undergrad and looking back at my my teaching experiences in K to 12, I think there's a lot of things that really are connected to my own philosophy, and I think we should need to embrace the strategies and and the different features that are out there, because that's going to help you create more inclusive experiences for students. So you know, think about the personally relevant. Connect it to maybe even life skills. Think about optimal levels of challenge. Think about the social integration you know, and for those inclusioners You know, think about how that EA is being socialized in your class, like, are they always alongside that one student or three students? Or how can they be deployed differently so that those kids get a chance to actually work alongside their peers a little bit more intimately and not always having an adult around, right? There's a lot of literature and research on on that kind of concept, so, yeah, I think it's important to look at those features and and reevaluate what you're doing alongside your your frameworks for inclusion that you might have, yeah, and

Douglas Gleddie:

those peer connections are an important feature in the framework, right? And it just makes sense. So Well, thanks, Haley, thanks for taking the time and a busy morning with a with a child who's in in the midst of still teething and having some fun there. So yeah, really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on.

Hayley Morrison:

Thank you, Doug,

Douglas Gleddie:

Hey friends. Thanks for listening to bonus episode six with Dr Hayley Morrison. Please check the show notes for all references to articles, etc. A couple of random points. For those who might not know, Connor McDavid is a Canadian hockey player, and in Canada, we always assume ice, not field, that plays for the Evanston Oilers in the NHL. We'll link to that documentary in the show notes. Also, as mentioned, we'll have Andy vastly episode ready for you to listen to on March. 3, another good one. Now they're up to 43 countries and 355 cities. Huge shout out to listeners in Whitehorse, Yukon, Surrey, British Columbia, Luxembourg, Luxembourg and Mercer, Pennsylvania. On a final note, our Canadian downloads now only count for less than 50% of our totals. So it's wonderful to have folks from all over the place downloading the podcast Happy Trails. You.